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The S.T.A.R. Forum 
I was so glad to notice you had this video today, I loved seeing it and rememebring what a great experience that was.
I actually did not have time to read all of the discussion between you and John, and I will do so soon, but I read enough to know I have to speak just briefly about welfare and what that constitutes.
You see, I was raised in a family of 12 children, by parents who had nothing. An angry call to the school or groveling to our neighbors earned us free lunches or carpool spots to events, but they never earned us success or pride. Food stamps came freely as long as my father stayed below the poverty level, which he was fine to do. Those stamps never gave him any desire to work or earn something better for us. My mother fought depression my whole childhood, we were the laughing stock of our small town, and neighbors often left clothing or other items on the porch for us. My parents were never happy, and I grew to feel myslef a burden- I even tried to commit suicide as a teenager. I never knew what it was to be self reliant, yes, in an LDS home, and take responsibility.
Then I watched as my poor mother decided to go back to shcool, she scrapped her way through classes while still having 8 children in the home- plus two grand-children born to a teenage mom…….we fit the bill perfectly of poverty in America. Welfare never, I repeat NEVER, helped us rise to the task.
My mother worked hard and began teaching, as kids many of us got our own jobs to buy clothing for high school and pay registration fees, I knew I would work for the rest of my life because I treasured what working meant…..freedom. Freedom to spend, buy, save, do whatever I wanted to or needed to.
I take HUGE issue with this argument that we are unsympathetic or that we are selfish if we are not for the government paying the way of all those who won’t pay their own way in this country. It is not about that. It is not about just the end result, but the PURSUIT of the end result that makes this country great. Giving handouts and rewarding poor choices does not help or teach those in need anything. Please rethink this simple way of thinking and realize this country was designed to make men GREATER, not pacify the needy, but nurture the potential and reward ethics. I love this country, and I have had a job ever since I was 14. I always will, I suppose, because I learned a while ago the rewards.
Let us help educate others and free the people from becoming needy second handers. That is where true freedom lies.
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The problem with your logic is that you see an ideal world in which members in the community, churches, families, and private organizations step up to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves.
This may be possible in the upper middle class LDS neighborhood you live in, but that scenario is not reality other parts of the United States.
There are pockets of poverty, both in rural areas and in our inner cities where the members of the community do not have the resources to help one another like we do in Utah. Nor do they have the means to donate to churches and to private charities that might help those in their communities. Those same areas are rife with crime, drug use and unemployment so that city and state agencies are strapped to offer support as well.
You may not have empathy for the able bodied adults trapped in this cycle of poverty through their lack of education and work skills, but it is important to remember that there are also the sick, the elderly, and the children in the mix as well.
Would you take away the U.S. Government safety net for those people in order to satisfy your purist views that there should not be a hint of “socialism” in spite of the fact that in reality there is no one willing or able to step up to the plate in many of these situations?
Should we just let the sick, elderly, handicapped, and children just fend for themselves because of a “principle” that the Federal Government should not do anything that resembles welfare because the founding fathers when our nation had 1/1,000,000 or so of the population it has today could not conceive of the government needing to help people?
I wish my conservative LDS friends could see beyond their own neighborhoods for a change and see that what is true in their personal experience simply is not true for millions of other people in the U.S. It would be nice if everywhere were just like the Mormon Utopia in which they live where having condoms and teaching ways of contraception is not the appropriate thing to do in schools and the ladies in the ward bring casseroles when there is an illness or death in the family.
Those protesting “Obama Care” and yelling about our country tuning into a “Socialist State” all have a place to sleep, their bellies full of food, money in their pockets, and medical care when they are injured or sick.
I’m sorry if this sounds crude but from my perspective the phrase that sums up the philosophy of those on the far right is:
“I’ve got mine, so screw everyone else”.
I don’t mean to offend, but that is exactly my impression when I watch the videos of the protesters with the signs with sayings on them that many of them couldn’t explain what it means if you asked them.
Please read Article I Section 8 of the Constitution again, it does in fact use the word PROVIDE in conjunction with the “common welfare”. I agree that the word PROMOTE in this context would have a very different meaning, but it is simply not there.
There are many European countries that do very well with a more socialistic type of system, and those people enjoy all of the rights and freedoms that we do, maybe even more because every citizen is afforded the right to health care. They are quite comfortable in a system in which “WE” is considered more important than “ME” as we have in the United States.
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I am sad to think that you see it as a “screw everyone else” mentality. You do not understand my perspective, and even though I’m LDS, I’m not naive enough to believe that Utah is some kind of utopia (which, by the way, means nowhere in Greek). I do not live in an upper-middle class neighborhood, but am surrounded by very wealthy and extremely impoverished in my area. We are a community and religion does not get in the way. And there is no separation by class.
I actually have quite a bit of sympathy toward those who are able-bodied but have never learned to do better for themselves or their families. (I cannot have empathy because I have always been blessed in my life with more than enough.)
It may surprise you to know that many in outlying communities LDS people are called to “service missions” in inner-city areas where education and skills are taught as part of their LDS mission. They are not there to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, but rather to teach skills and educate in self-sufficiency. This helps them move up Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. And if those able-bodied people are not taught to rise above their circumstances, their children are doomed to repeat the cycle. (I actually agree with you here.)
I do not think this is a Federal issue. This is where we differ. However, if the Federal government took less taxes and the states took more, we would still be taxed less, and I believe more work could be done for millions of people across this United States, without so much waste, corruption and bureaucracy.
This is not an LDS movement, either, but a conservative movement. In all honesty a Constitutional movement and a libertarian one, in my opinion. I do not believe that government can fix this problem and have it turn out better. I am a capitalist and a believer in the free-market. But if the states had more control over the money of the people in the state, and didn’t send so much of it to Washington DC we could do amazing things.
I believe we need FREE clinics that are privately run, they may receive some STATE money, but the Federal government shouldn’t be anywhere near it. And most of the money should come from citizens, charitable organizations, and endowments set up to keep things running just like a University. It doesn’t matter how many people were in America at the time the Constitution was written. The principles work. Let the STATES have most of the control over the issues. Keep the Federal government very focused on specific things.
The problem I have with the health care issue is that as philanthropic as it sounds I stand firm that this cannot be a federally government program. If we need to reform the insurance companies, if we need tort reform, if we need to look at ways to incentivize private doctors and hospitals to do more charity and get the tax right off, it will still cost us less money, and we won’t be a slave to our government. JFK had it right when he said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country.” We need to stop putting our hands out and enslaving our children and grand-children under a tax burden that will be so great that it will break their backs.
Section 8 clearly does not have the word promote, because that is found in the preamble where it says “provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare…” You were correct. However, Section 8 specifically lists what the taxes, duties and such are to be used for. They are very specific, and we have been ignoring this section for quite some time. When I read Section 8 I believe it says we’ll have a post office, smooth roads, regular commerce between other nations and states, and of course a good navy and army.
We both have hearts that want to help others. I am of the belief that many will require help and some who are helped will never change their circumstances anyway. The difference for me is, I look at it as a personal decision to be charitable and giving, and do not want to be forced. The Money Muse is a blog where I refer people. This woman is Hindu and teaches great principles on money. 10% tithe, 10% long-term savings, 10% short-term savings, 10% CHARITY, and 60% live on it.
I am currently reading “Economic Harmonies” by Bastiat. Fascinating book, and it speaks well to this subject, because he was fighting socialism in France at the same time.
I have visited other countries and they are not as free as we are. You can read my experience just to the north of us in Canada that I had. I have also visited overseas. We are free. This is the greatest nation in the world and we led the world out of darkness by our founding documents. Since when did America need to “catch up” with other countries. We don’t have to catch up. We need to lead the way. I know if enough people really put their minds to it, we will come up with something FAR better than Canada or the U.K. with our health care system. We just need to continue the great debate and not rush into something that wouldn’t take affect until 2013 anyway.
You may have experienced members of the LDS faith who are blinded by their tiny worldview; we are not all that way. I have experienced many others, who are blinded their own personal viewpoint as well, of many faiths. God loves us all, and he wants us to unite for a glorious cause. Our freedom is precious. When you take agency out of charity, you just become a slave to another’s idea of charity, and then there is no growth of the soul, and possibly enslavement in the future.
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John — What amazes me is the fact that you actually believe that when you turn 65 Social Security will even be available.
ACTUALLY WHEN I TURN 62 IN DECEMBER I WILL DO THE PAPERWORK AND START RECEIVING CHECKS IN MARCH.
If you look on the FRONT page of your Social Security document directly available from the government every year you will read that they say it will be our of funding (bankrupt).
CONGRESS HAS EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO FIX THE FUNDING OF SS AND MEDICARE TO INSURE ITS SOLVENCY IF THEY HAVE THE WILL TO DO IT AND CAN WIN THE FIGHT WITH THE CONSERVATIVES WHO DON’T WANT THE AMOUNT OF WITHHOLDING TO INCREASE.
HERE IS WHAT MY STATEMENT THAT CAME ON SEPTEMBER 9,2009 SAID:
“YOUR ESTIMATED BENEFITS ($1,482 A MONTH AT AGE 62) ARE BASED ON CURRENT LAW. THE LAW GOVERNING BENEFIT AMOUNTS MAY CHANGE BECAUSE BY 2041, THE PAYROLL TAXES COLLECTED WILL BE ENOUGH TO PAY ONLY ABOUT 78% OF SCHEDULED BENEFITS.”
BY 2041 WHEN I AM 94, I MAY GET $326 LESS PER MONTH IF THE PROGRAM IS NOT ADJUSTED IN THE NEXT 32 YEARS. I CAN LIVE WITH THAT.
Also, as a true Constitutionalist, yes Social Security and Medicare are forms of welfare and are bad for the country, but because people depend on it, cannot be eliminated immediately but rather changed to handle the current situation and then eliminated.
SO WHAT WOULD YOU REPLACE THEM WITH FOR THOSE OVER 65 WHO HAVE NO OTHER INCOME OR NO OTHER HEATHCARE?
Our government has not left this money in a trust fund to grow to handle the problem, but rather spent it.
ON THIS WE BOTH AGREE. WHEN AL GORE WANTED TO FIX THIS PROBLEM, HE WAS MADE FUN OF BY THE REPUBLICANS. BOTH THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE TO BLAME FOR THIS.
Our post office is in the red, our social security is in the red, Medicare and Medicaid have massive amounts of fraud. (To the tune of 45 billion so far this year alone according to the debt clock)
NO ONE REALLY KNOWS THE AMOUNT OF FRAUD IN THE MEDICARE/MEDICAID SYSTEM. PRESIDENT OBAMA IS WORKING TO DIVERT AS MUCH OF THAT MONEY AS POSSIBLE TO HELP PAY FOR HEALTH CARE REFORM. IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT IT IS THE CITIZENS OF THE U.S.—NOT THE GOVERNMENT WHO IS PERPETRATING THE FRAUD.
Welfare of ANY kind is clearly not something our founding fathers wanted the Federal Government to participate in.
YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO WAY OF KNOWING THIS TO BE TRUE, UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN “REINCARNATED”.
My health care? I own a business, and I pay thousands of dollars EVERY MONTH for my health care and that of my employees. I pay for it 100% for them and their families. I have a $1,000 deductible per person in my family with a $2,500 family deductible and then it’s 80 / 20. Very similar to many average Americans as far as coverage goes.
AS A BUSINESS OWNER, YOU ALSO CAN TAKE A DEDUCTION 100% OF YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE COSTS BOTH FOR YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR EMPLOYEES. THE REST OF US HAVE TO MEET THE 7.5% OF AGI THRESHOLD TO TAKE ANY DEDUCTION.
(The 45 million number is debatable since this includes illegals, but remember this is only 15% of the population.)
IF ONLY 15% OF THE CITIZENS IN THE WEALTHIEST COUNTRY ON EARTH HAVE NO HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE THEN THAT MAKES IT OK?
You may argue that I should want government health care because it will save my company so much money. This isn’t about money. This is about freedom and small government. Government is full of corruption and waste, and it would be horrible to give our government more control over our lives.
HOW ON EARTH WOULD PROVIDING THE RIGHT OF AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE INSURANCE TO EVERY CITIZEN (LIKE EVERY OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES EXCEPT THE UNITED STATES) GIVE GOVERNMENT MORE CONTROL OVER OUR LIVES. THAT JUST DOESN’T MAKE SENSE TO ME.
Many in Canada and Britain are amazed we are even thinking of going this direction. This will create many more problems than it will fix, and once it’s in will be the first step to socialism.
DO THE RESEARCH. FAR MORE PEOPLE IN CANADA AND THE UK ARE AMAZED THAT THE PEOPLE IN THE U.S. DO NOT HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.
Also, this march was not just about health care. This march was about government responsibility and returning to our Founding Father’s principles and the Constitution. This march was frustration from the trillions of dollars in spending packages that have been pushed through putting our children and grandchildren in debt before they are even born.
HERE IS WHERE I NEED TO CALL HYPOCRISY ON YOU FOLKS. WHEN GEORGE BUSH TOOK OFFICE THERE WAS A BUDGET SURPLUS, NOT A DEFICIT. THE ESTIMATED TOTAL COST OF THE IRAQ WAR IS 3 TRILLION DOLLARS! WHERE WERE THE “PATRIOTS” THEN PROTESTING THIS COST PASSED ON TO OUR GRANDCHILDREN. GO TO THIS LINK TO SEE THE VISUALIZATION OF THE DIFFERENT COSTS IN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/the-billion-dollar-gram/
THE ESTIMATED COST OF REFORMING THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS ESTIMATED TO BE ABOUT $50 TO $65 BILLION A YEAR WHEN COMPLETELY PHASED IN. ROLLING BACK BUSH’S TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY, AND THE COST SAVINGS GAINED BY CHANGES IN THE HEAL CARE SYSTEM WILL PROVIDE MUCH OF THE FUNDING NEEDED TO EFFECT THIS POSITIVE AND MUCH NEEDED REFORM.
I may have thought similar to you 7-8 years ago. But after studying the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, and other documents related to our founding, I have come to understand that just because a program sounds good for humanity doesn’t mean it is actually good or that government should be involved.
I’M SORRY TO DISAGREE, BUT I DON’T SEE THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES AS THE ENEMY AS THE ULTRA CONSERVATIVES DO. IT IS MY GOVERNMENT OF MY COUNTRY. WITHOUT THE INTERVENTION OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THERE WOULD STILL BE STATES PRACTICING SEGREGATION AND STATES WITH SUBDIVISIONS IN WHAT ARE NOW NATIONAL PARKS!
THIS IS FROM THE CONSTITUTION:
Section 8: The Congress shall have power
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and GENERAL WELFARE of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Could the GENERAL WELFARE of the United States perhaps include health care?
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I’m glad you will receive the benefits of Social Security that you have paid into. My generation will not be so lucky. I do not want to immediately cut off the people who have paid into this system and are relying on it, but in that is the problem. What was intended to be something that would enhance savings for the American people has turned into their crutch for retirement. Just as public school is was seen as the only way to school our children until recently, Social Security is often seen as the only retirement income to plan on. Welfare of any kind is a state issue. There are only certain things the Federal Government is supposed to do. And as you quoted PROVIDE for our defense, but you forgot the word PROMOTE the general welfare. Those words are very different. It is not their job to provide for our welfare, but promote it. I do not disagree with you that reform in the health care industry is necessary, from tort-reform to tax deductions for charitable service to the uninsured.
I do not blame Congress for the fraud in Medicare, but they do not have the ability to stop it (apparently) and so there is much waste within the system.
There is a legacy that we must leave to our children and grandchildren. I am willing to make the sacrifice of my social security to help clean up the system of government currently in place.
By the way, I cannot deduct any of my personal health insurance, and in fact must claim that on my personal taxes because I am an S-Corp, even though all of my employees receive this benefit tax-free, so you are wrong in assuming that because I own business that I benefit from that. I personally have to pay taxes on about $11,500 per year, that I never see as a direct result of having my company pay for medical insurance. But I was free to choose this when I set up my business.
If you read the words of the founding fathers along with the documents that they used to come up with our Declaration and Constitution you would know that reincarnation is not necessary, because they are very direct about welfare in our country. I highly recommend you read the book The 5,000 Year Leap.
I agree with you that the war was very miss-managed by Bush and his administration, and believe me the conservatives were outraged at the stimulus package that gave millions to people who never even paid taxes. This is not a Republican / Democrat issue. This is an American issue. You are happy taking from your government, but I am not. I feel our country is being turned into serfs who have every imaginable activity monitored and regulated by the intervention of the U.S. government in the name of humanity. If we as individuals do not behave kindly and charitably toward our fellow-men, it is not the government’s job to rob us, and force that charity. That, my friend, is socialism, and the step after that is communism. I will not have it.
I love my country a great deal, as I am sure you do. You have faith in this administration, I do not. I have faith in the American people, and I believe that welfare of any sort should be dismissed as a power under the Federal government, and many of the programs that are currently burdening the backs of the taxpayers should be stopped. States need to be more involved on the day to day affairs of the people, and churches, families, and private organizations need to step up to the plate to take care of their citizens that truly cannot take care of themselves. Our federal government was designed to protect us and help keep commerce regular between the states. After all, Franklin is the one who when asked what they had given us said, “A Republic, maam, if you can keep it.” I intend to help keep it.
Best of luck in your upcoming retirement.
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What amazes me is that when each of those protest participants turns 65 they will turn in the required forms and sign up for Social Security payments and Medicare all the while thinking “socialism” is bad for our country. . . sigh.
Before that day they will burst with patriotic pride that everyone who has served their country in the armed services will get free health care provided by the government for life.
They also may or may not know that those in Congress fighting tooth and nail against government provided health care actually have GOVERNMENT PROVIDED HEALTH CARE of the highest level all paid for by the U.S. taxpayers.
I wonder how many of the 45 million Americans who do not have heath insurance were in attendance at that rally. Perhaps those respondents on this blog who were there would describe their own health care insurance plan to the good readers.
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John — What amazes me is the fact that you actually believe that when you turn 65 Social Security will even be available. If you look on the FRONT page of your Social Security document directly available from the government every year you will read that they say it will be out of funding (bankrupt). Also, as a true Constitutionalist, yes Social Security and Medicare are forms of welfare and are bad for the country, but because people depend on it, cannot be eliminated immediately but rather changed to handle the current situation and then eliminated. Rather than plan and prepare as a society the government runs a ponzi scheme where the newest investors (our children and grandchildren) are paying off the old investors (which is you and me), which if run by any person other than a government would be jailed. Our government has not left this money in a trust fund to grow to handle the problem, but rather spent it.
I am very aware that Congress has government provided health care at our expense. This is a travesty of our Constitutional principles for a number of reasons. Their system works because they are paying for a limited amount of representatives on the backs of millions of taxpayers. Trying to run a universal, government run health care plan will fail because it will be impossible to keep it afloat. Our post office is in the red, our social security is in the red, Medicare and Medicaid have massive amounts of fraud. (To the tune of 45 billion so far this year alone according to the debt clock)
We have compassion in our hearts, but we recognize the proper role of government, especially the Federal Government. Welfare of ANY kind is clearly not something our founding fathers wanted the Federal Government to participate in.
My health care? I own a business, and I pay thousands of dollars EVERY MONTH for my health care and that of my employees. I pay for it 100% for them and their families. I have a $1,000 deductible per person in my family with a $2,500 family deductible and then it’s 80 / 20. Very similar to many average Americans as far as coverage goes. (The 45 million number is debatable since this includes illegals, but remember this is only 15% of the population.)
You may argue that I should want government health care because it will save my company so much money. This isn’t about money. This is about freedom and small government. Government is full of corruption and waste, and it would be horrible to give our government more control over our lives. Many in Canada and Britain are amazed we are even thinking of going this direction. This will create many more problems than it will fix, and once it’s in will be the first step to socialism.Also, this march was not just about health care. This march was about government responsibility and returning to our Founding Father’s principles and the Constitution. This march was frustration from the trillions of dollars in spending packages that have been pushed through putting our children and grandchildren in debt before they are even born.
I may have thought similar to you 7-8 years ago. But after studying the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, and other documents related to our founding, I have come to understand that just because a program sounds good for humanity doesn’t mean it is actually good or that government should be involved.
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Wonderful! Thank you SO much! I recall that 1.5 million count from the Park Police being announced! it was shortly after that obama flew over in the copter and then Metro was closed and 45 busses full of Patriots were turned away, all roads into DC were ordered CLOSED or we surely would have had over 3 million in town! NEXT Year we will!
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Great job on the video! Too bad the MSM could not see the truth in Washington right under their nose on 9/12!
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